Boneset Information From: Janet Date: Sat Jan 1, 2000 4:48pm I hope you dried the Boneset good before making the tincture as otherwise it can be a deadly poison.  It contains a deadly chemical called tremerol.  Drying of the herb eliminates it and makes it a very useful herb.  Do not use Boneset if there is any liver problems. Boneset prefers a rich, moist soil and full sun. Mumsy Plymouth, IN From: sonshine Date: Sat Jan 1, 2000 11:53pm Regarding the recent discussion of Boneset, traditionally Eupatorium Perfoliatum and Eupatorium purpureum are not interchangeable. Please check your Materia Medica.  The dried flowering tops (leaves and flowers) of E. Perfoliatum are used for herbal medicine.  As a hot infusion, boneset (E. Perfoliatum) was traditionally used to induce sweating and/or vomiting.  A standard hot infusion is an ounce of the herb in a quart of boiling water, cover and let cool a bit. The dose is one to three ounces.  Large doses will induce vomiting. Or dose for dried tincture is around 10 drops in hot water, every half hour for up to five doses to encourage sweating.  It is an excellent first line of defense for flu along with elderberries and peppermint. Rosie From: Janet Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 2:32am Once again herbalists disagree and that is why holistic medicine is always under discussion and I will always say that the best thing is to use more than one source for information and then try all herbs with caution and preferably doctors supervision if unsure.  This is one reference that agrees with me http://www.altnature.com/gallery/joe_pye_weed.htm but as I say herbology is not a perfect science and honestly I don't think any medicine is.  That is why they say practicing physicians...LOL As a note I just did a quick search on the computer for  Eupatorium purpureum and found a total of 1507 items. Not all medicinal references but that is a lot. Mumsy Plymouth, IN From: Henriette Kress Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 4:38am >Once again herbalists disagree and that is why holistic medicine is always >under discussion and I will always say that the best thing is to use more >than one source for information and then try all herbs with caution and >preferably doctors supervision if unsure. ...except that doctors generally are overcautious and have no idea about herbs.  Why are they overcautious? Because they're used to harsh drugs, not gentle herbs. They're used to fast results, not gentle corrections. And they're used to side effects. So it's far better to visit a herbalist than a MD, if you want to use herbs for something more complicated than, say, a common cold. >This is one reference that agrees >with me http://www.altnature.com/gallery/joe_pye_weed.htm but as I say >herbology is not a perfect science and honestly I don't think any medicine >is.  That is why they say practicing physicians...LOL If you read that you'll notice that E. purpureum is not used for your common cold. E. perfoliatum is.  Eupatorium purpureum is gravelroot, Joe Pye weed, and queen of the meadow. Mind you, I know a couple other Joe Pye weeds and Queens of the meadow. Eupatorium perfoliatum is boneset. Like Rosie said: they are NOT used interchangeably.  Bottom line: know your plants. Henriette From: sonshine Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 11:07am Dear Mumsy: > Once again herbalists disagree and that is why holistic medicine is always > under discussion Eupatorium Perfoliatum and Eupatorium Purpureum are not interchangeable and have never been used by qualified herbalist for the same purpose. > and I will always say that the best thing is to use more > than one source for information and then try all herbs with caution The quality of the "source of information" is very important.  Herbology is not a new alternative modality and we have centuries of both clinical data and excellent reference materials that provide us with the basic data we need on individual herbs such as the two in question.  I would not "use with caution" E. Purpureum if I had the onset of flu nor would I use E. Perfoliatum if I had cystitis. and > preferably doctors supervision if unsure. M.D.'s (in general) are not trained in medical herbalism and cannot, even if they wanted, provide you with correct data regarding the specific use of medical herbs.  Times may change but at the moment the average M.D. is not the appropriate source for medical herbs.  I respect M.D.'s for their expertise and years of education/training and clinical practice; however it is a common fact that they have not received training in herbology. This is one reference that agrees > with me but as I say > herbology is not a perfect science and honestly I don't think any medicine > is. I know the owner of the webpage you referenced above as will contact her informing her of the error.  Just because you found one site that "agrees with you" does not mean it is correct.  I'm sure if you referenced the other 1507 you found, you would (I hope) find the majority would indicate the true use of both herbs in question. I did a quick search for the listers and have copied and pasted below David Hoffman's monograph of Eupatorium Purpureum (copied and pasted from http://www.healthy.net/CLINIC/therapy/HERBAL/index.asp.  Henrietta's webpage contains some wonderful Materia Medica's online which can also be referenced and will collaborate with David Hoffman's data on E. Purpureum. Gravel Root © David L. Hoffman, M.N.I.M.H. Eupatorium purpureum Compositae Names : Gravelweed, Joe-Pye Weed, Queen of the Meadow. Do not confuse with Boneset : Eupatorium perfoliatum Habitat : USA Collection : The root and rhizome should be dug up in the autumn after the plant has stopped flowering. Wash thoroughly, slice and dry. Part Used : Rhizome and root. Constituents : Volatile oil, of unknown composition Flavonoids, including euparin Resin Actions : Diuretic, anti-lithic, anti-rheumatic. Indications : Gravel Root is used primarily for kidney stones or gravel. In urinary infections such as cystitis and urethritis it may be used with benefit, whilst it can also play a useful role in a systemic treatment of rheumatism and gout. Ellingwood considered it to have the following symptomatology: "Irritation of the bladder in women from displacement and chronic inflammation of the uterus; and suppression of urine, partial or complete, during or after pregnancy." He recommends in following conditions: dropsy, strangury, gravel, haematuria, disease of the kidney and bladder from an excess of uric acid, chronic endometriosis, leucorrhoea, chronic uterine disease, threatened abortion, ovarian and uterine atony, dysmenorrhoea, dysuria, constant desire to urinate, intermittent fever, severe bone pains. Combinations : For kidney stones or gravel it combines well with Stone Root, Parsley Piert, Pellitory of the Wall or Hydrangea. Preparations & Dosage : Decoction: put l teaspoonful of the herb in a cup of water, bring to the boil and simmer for l0 minutes. This should be drunk three times a day. Tincture: take l-2 ml of the tincture three times aday. Rosie From: Catherine Novak Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 10:05pm Mumsy, What references do you have for this info? My notes on Boneset, Eupatorium perfoliatum, mentions that it includes small amounts of PAs (pyrollizidine alkaloids (sp?) the same constiuent found in some comfrey plants that can cause liver damage. But apparently boneset has so little of this that, except for being contraindicated for pregnancy, breastfeeding, young children and perhaps folks with current liver damage, it can be useful in a number of situations. Please pardon me if someone already brought this up and I missed a response on it as I'm working my way backward on the digests. Cathy, Wise Weeds From: Janet Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 2:24pm Well I have 2 my grandpa told me never to use it fresh and too harvest in the fall.  The healing herbs by Michael Castleman just tells me why, it is because it has tremerol which causes nausea, vomiting, weakness, muscle tremors, increased respiration and at high does even coma and death. I hope this helps. Mumsy Plymouth, IN From: Catherine Novak Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 5:10pm Mumsy, Your granndpa telling you not to use it fresh might have been his way of saying it was more effective as a tea or tinctured.... The healing herbs by Michael Castleman...I'm not familiar with this one at all...But then again, I don't know everybody out there. Aside from my materia medica notes from my studies, I've looked it up in The New Age Herbalist by Richard Mabey and have seen no warnings, Penelope Odey classes it with Joe Pye Weed...no warnings...David Hoffman's The Complete Illustrated Holistic Herbal has no warnings, Michael Tierra's "The Way of Herbs" has no warnings....and a lot of recommendations that boneset is a very useful herb. In fact, except for my personal materia medica notes...no mention of PAs and boneset have I found. And no one mentions this tremerol that you say Castleman warns against. I looked up Castleman at Amazon.com and noticed he does not seem to be a practicing herbalist, but rather in the "tradition" of a Vayro Tyler...in other words, he researches herbs but doesn't know anything about them personally. At least that's the impression I got from my search. Ah, here's a brief bio of him that I found on the net... Michael Castleman is an award-winning journalist specializing in health, medicine, fitness, nutrition, and sexuality. A former adjunct professor at the University of California-Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, he has over 2,000,000 copies of his books in print; Nature's Cures: 33 Natural Therapies to Improve Your Health and Well- Being; The Healing Herbs: The Complete Guide to Nature's Medicines; Sexual Solutions: A Guide for Menand the Women Who Love Them, and Before You Call the Doctor: Safe, Effective Self-Care for Over 300 Common Medical Problems. Michael writesregularly for numerous national health magazines and is the medical director of NetHealth, an Internet health information company. Aha...here's a NONHERBAL site that gives warnings...but doesn't say where it gets its "facts" from.  Kinda reminds me of the supposed photosensitizing effect of St. John's Wort...if it affects cows, it must affect humans the same way (actually, this is not the case, if you're not picking up on my sarcasm) The source for this info appears to be from The Complete Guide to Vitamins, Minerals & Supplements by H. Winter Griffith, M.D. © 1988 by Fisher Books; electronic rights by Medical Data Exchange Known effects Irritates gastrointestinal tract. Can produce "milk sickness" in humans, an acutedisease characterized by trembling, vomiting and severe abdominal pain. It is caused by eating dairy products or beef from cattle poisoned by eating boneset. Increases perspiration. Causes vomiting. Here's some more info at M. Grieve's http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/bonese65.html Of course, this reference will not have the most up to date info, but it is pretty extensive. Here's David Hoffman online http://www.healthy.net/library/books/hoffman/materiamedica/boneset.htm Cathy, Wise Weeds From: Nina Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 11:12pm Here is some more info on Boneset ... from Stephen Harrod Buhner's 'Herbal Antibiotics'. Nina Boneset ... (Eupatorium perfoliatum) Collection:  It should be collected when it is in flower (August or September) if being tinctured fresh.  Otherwise it should be picked just before flowering. Actions:  Immunostimulant (increases phagocytosis to 4 times that of echinacea), diaphoretic, febrifuge, mucous membrane tonic, smooth muscle relaxant, anti- inflammatory, cytotoxic, mild emetic, peripheral ciculatory stimulant, gastric bitter. Other species, though also used for colds and flu, tend to be primarily used for urinary tract and uric acid problems (like Joe Pye Weed and gravel root). Clinical trials have shown that boneset stimulates phagocytosis (the number and aggressiveness of white blood cells in the blood) better than echinacea, is analgesic (at least as effective as aspirin), and reduces cold and flu symptoms.  In mice it has shown strong immunostimulant activity and cytotoxic action against cancer cells. Increasing numbers of practicing herbalists report that boneset is a reliable and effective immunostimulant, especially in infections that just won't go away. Preparation and Dosage: Tea:  1 teaspoon in 8 oz. hot water, steep for 15 minutes.  Take 4-6 oz. up to 4 times per day. Tincture:  Use fresh herb in flower, 1:2 with 95% alcohol, use 20-40 drops up to 3 times a day.  Dry herb: 1:5 with 60% alcohol, use 30-50 drops, up to 3 times a day.  In acute viral or bacterial upper respiratory infections, use 10 drops in hot water every half hour up to 6 times a day.  In chronic conditions, use 10 drops, 4 times a day. Side Effects: The hot infusion in quantity can cause vomiting. Boneset is unpleasantly bitter to most people. From: Catherine Novak Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 2:31 pm Leda, A lot of the info I posted on boneset came from internet and authors...But my first research stop was with my materia medica notes from studying with David Winston. And he did not say boneset was poisonous....Since I studied with him a few years ago, I did the web searches just in case something else had come up and shared what I found with the group. However, as I learned more than 250 to 300 herbs with David....I don't know all of them personally yet. My direct experience is with about a third of those...IOW, I haven't used boneset personally...Unfortunately the one plant I had perished in the heatwave down here as I was a bad plant mommy and didn't get it transplanted soon enough. Based on what I know, though, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I had it in my cupboard. Cathy, Wise Weeds